HI all,
For those who are following my posts, you know the situation - myself and my brother are POAs for my narcisist dad with dementia, who is in assisted living, and just now realizing that he is incompetent for decision making.
DPOA was put into effect by him via his attorney at the time of hospitalization last fall. Functionally it is still in effect with me managing most of his estate.
Question - how much do we need to reveal in good faith about issues with his house?
His current level of competency has not been tested or evaluated, but most in contact with him agree that it is worse than when he signed to DPOA into effect. . He is in AL and is "ok" with me running most of his finances and estate.
However , I recently discovered that his currently unoccupied house has roof leaks and some floor damage due to this. Am I obligated to tell him about this? The only reason that I am hesitant is because he will 1) Freak out 2) want to go see it 3) want to be involved and micro manage the repair process, even though he cannot remember things day to day and it will just slow things down, and drive me nuts.
Personally I would rather get the roof and floors fixed myself using his funds with careful documentation (and then with respect to soon selling it, I hope), without his getting involved or even knowing about it , and wanting to micro manage it. But, in good faith, am I obligated to tell him about the issues ?
What you stated your preference is, sounds like the best option. I'm in a similar position with my mom. My brother is the one with DPOA but we share responsibilities. We both document every withdrawal, deposit, expenditure we make and we tell our mother very little. She doesn't have dementia but she worries too much. Keeping her in the dark keeps the worry away. We only answer questions she asks with a positive spin. We do not tell her things that will cause her to worry or freak out.
If your DPOA gives you authority on all financial matters, you have authority to resolve the issues with the house without including him. The integrity of the house is a financial matter because disrepair affects its value, and therefore negatively impacts the estate.
My DPOA gives me authority on all financial matters, but also takes it further by outlining each financial “bucket,” one being real estate. If this is included, it furthers the point that you can do what needs to be done. If at some point, you need to discuss it with him you get to refer to this in the document to reinforce your actions.
I also understand the “freak out” aspect as my mother is extremely volatile, and I know what sets her off. When she’s well cared for with minimal change to routine, her health is much better - unnecessary drama can take weeks for her to reset. You know your dad‘s behavior, and while it isn’t necessarily a DPOA thing, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with considering his well-being as a legitimate factor in it as well.
in the end, our parents are at a point in life where the reasoning skills are shot. I think you 100% should move forward on your own, but if you have any doubts about the legal aspect, you should be able to confirm with the attorney prepared the DPOA.
edit - I don’t see previous posts when I posted, now that it’s posted they show up! So I basically restated all the same stuff.
one thing I will add seeing that you’ve considered Dropping the POA. I was there too, and I still think about it sometimes. The things that put me there involved me trying to control it all too much, and do everything I could to do things right, save money, etc. I tried to make sure all caregivers etc got every detail. When I was where you’re at, I took a break for a week or two, and reset. When I needed help from a contractor or service, I would get a referral from someone I trust and use that referral. I didn’t worry about getting three bids, and didn’t worry about micromanaging the details. I also shared with the referral what was going on, and it’s amazing how they get it: you’re going through hell. The job just ends up getting done well.
I am planning this approach for now.
I reviewed the POA document with the attorney, and it does cover real estate in the financial aspects. So I'm proceeding along for now without telling my dad. I do think that telling him will unnecessarily affect him, which will affect his health potentially
the only thing is that eventually he wants to go to the house to go through some stuff and decide on some other items to bring to AL now that he has realized we wont let him go back to live at home. So if/when we take him to his house to do that, he will eventually discover the water leak damage. I'll then deal with his response to seeing it at that time....
You are already approaching burnout as it is.
Don't take him back to pick out his clothes, either.
Your show of Good Faith is putting up with his narc drama and remaining calm about it. That is a huge personal sacrifice already.
Water causes bad damage. Homeowner's insurance may cover the floors, but not the roof leak.
that does make sense as far as covering my self
but I'm getting tired of having to cover my own good will
if my dad doesnt trust me, then I may be getting close to just dropping my POA and he can get a guardian of the state.
I'm really worn out and tired
Also, is there a reason why you and your brother are keeping the house and not putting it up for sale? Check with the attorney and the assisted living management person regarding the 5 year look back regarding finances especially if he is in AL under medicaid (yes, there are some states that allow medicare folks to be living in AL with medicaid assistance). Check to see if it's too late to flip your dad's estate into some form of a trust.
If he asks about the house your response is "I am taking care of it" That sort of sums things up without saying anything.
I guess the decisions you have to make is at what point are you going to sell the house and how much do you want to put into it. With a roof leak and depending on how long it has been leaking that can be a fairly easy fix or it can be a nightmare.
freak. We always tell her what’s happening at the house. She is playing with a full deck and wants to know every last thing. So we tell her. It’s better than having her accuse us of keeping information from her.
My father has mild dementia. If if was only him, I wouldn’t convey any information about the house.
Fix the water damage pronto!! Ask his neighbors if they know a roofer and get a quote or two to fix the roof. Once fixed, start looking for a realtor. The summer and early fall are primetime for young couples and families to move. As DPOA you have the authority to sell his assets to pay for his care. You will need a real estate attorney.
I would be extremely cautious about taking him to his house to get clothes, which you mention below. People with dementia are *unpredictable* and personally, I would not take the risk. Stick with your original plan to bring clothes to him. You need to change the dynamic because narcissists are used to getting their way.
That said, if he has a washer/dryer or a laundromat nearby, I would clean his clothes and, once he's chosen, donate the rest that will already be clean.
My father-in-law is a narcissist. Both my husband, who is his father's DPOA, and I have learned how to get things done to save FIL from his poor decisions. He also has dementia. Good luck and I hope you keep us posted!
If he asks what's going on with his house just say everything is good and change the subject and ask him an unrelated question to divert his thinking. You don't want to stress him out or get him on a loop of worrying. When my mom starts in on her money and that she doesn't know where it is, I just tell her it's in the bank where it should be so it's safe. That makes her happy and we move on. Obviously my responses have differed over time depending on her stage of dementia and level of agitation.
* be upset
* be confused
* Be angry
* Want to argue
*** And yes ! all of the above you mentioned. Don't open THAT can of worms.
There is no reason to.
This isn't about respect or loving a parent. It is about doing what is in their best interest 'at this time of their life' and what needs to be done - and how. You love your dad - this is evident by all you do and you asking this question. You want to respect him (and you are).
The aim or goal of caring for a person with dementia is to keep them as calm as possible. This is, in my experience and belief, the 'only' goal when interacting personally. Ensure facility is doing all they should / can. Visit. Interact as you can.
(I had an excellent relationship with my client who had advanced dementia who only talked gibberish-I smiled, talked with her, made good eye contact, I told her I loved her (she got it), held her hand / made physical contact when appropriate. She would often want to hold my hand.
You do what you need to do. Period. No more discussion (although, yes, there is here ... )
Realize that you cannot talk to him as if he doesn't have dementia. He does. His brain cells are dying.
Good Faith to me is keeping him as calm and 'happy' in his world as possible. Smile, hold his hand (if you can), give him a neck or hand massage, take him to lunch ...
And leave when you need to. Take care of yourself.
What I might say:
"Oh, thats a really good question, I'll check into it.
Then change the subject.
Never ever offer information he doesn't ask for - there is no reason to do so.
Visit Teepa Snow's website to learn how to communicate with a loved one with dementia. She will help you a lot. Watch her webinars, You Tubes, buy her books. It is a matter of learning / understanding what dementia is so you will know how to respond, lovingly.
You are a very good adult child to your dad.
On behalf of all of us, we applaud you. It is hard and difficult work.
Gena / Touch Matters
Do not tell him about his house conditions. Get the water cleaned up, the roof fixed and damaged areas replaced. As JoAnn29 had mentioned, contact his homeowner's insurance for help regarding storm damage.
If the leaks were caused by a storm, contact his home owners. They may pay for a new roof and the water damage.
There is one good recent accomplishment, which is that he acknowledges and realizes that he wont be going back to live at home any more, that he wont improve physically and mentally, and needs an assisted living environment from now on . THis is a good accomplishment for him to acknowledge this! However, with that said, he wants to get more clothes from his house and for me to take him. I could bring a random assortment over to the AL and have him pick and choose from those, then take the rest back. However he says he wants to go to his house and go through the clothes to get the ones he wants - a generally reasonable ask. The only negatives are that it will be a full day affair to do this, and he may well then see the rain damage of the house at that time! (although possibly he may not notice it)
Keep in mind it is no longer about what he wants, his brain is broken, it is about his needs.
I would take him a group of clothes to pick from and go from there. It is time to consider donating and getting rid of his things, his needs in MC will be minimal.
There are other things not to mention as time goes on: his bills, deaths of his former neighbors, an annual event that you've decided he should skip because it would be too confusing for him to go. His world is narrowing. Let it.
You already know what will happen if you involve him in any of the decisions you have to make concerning the house or anything else. His involvement will be a burden and an unnecessary obstacle to getting the things done you need to get done as POA.
I would not even show him receipts or any record of what you're spending. You don't have to do that either. As the POA you are responsible for aking his legal/medical decisions, paying his bills, and making sure that his day to day common needs are met. You are not obligated to explain every cent or show him records of anything.
The only time you have to show receipts, records, or anything else is his estate will be probated at some point and you have a claim to collect on. Or you are mismanaging his assets and not checking that his day to day needs are being met. In other words, someone suspects you of elder abuse then you answer to the court.
You are managing your father's life and his needs as best you can because you're a good son. Don't make things harder than they have to be by trying to explain every cent you spend and every decision you make to your father with dementia.
You will, as you said, manage this carefully documenting all actions taken. If it somehow ever comes up you will simply say "we had a few leaks and I have fixed them. I did a good job and got a great price just like you taught me, Dad".
When my brother made me POA and Trustee he remained competent enough to know where his money was, where he wanted it and why, how much he wished to give to a charity, what he wanted sold, what CD he wanted where and who was to be beneficiary on said CD. Because he was competent, I managed everything as he wished and gave him a monthly sheet explaining everything for that month, every penny in and every penny out.
He got so that finally he would just take it, clip it into his loose-leaf binder, and be satisfied; he was happy to be rid of all the responsibility once he knew I would share everything with him. He, his mentation, his hallucinations all IMPROVED with the lack of worry.
My bro had Lewy's Dementia. If he ever slid into the place where he was no longer competent, was wrong or was worried or was giving bad advice, I would have acted for him AS THE DOCUMENT SAID I HAD POWER TO DO. I would have protected his funds, and HIM from worry.
So I am saying your document explains your powers. You are doing your best. Do what you think is best.
Dee died before he lost his faculties completely. He got sepsis from a small wound on his shin and it killed him. He would have been so glad of that; he so wanted to beat Lewy to the grave. So I never had to face this. But I was ready to use MY BEST JUDGEMENT. You have proven yourself quite capable.
Make your decision and on you go.
"Personally I would rather get the roof and floors fixed myself using his funds with careful documentation (and then with respect to soon selling it, I hope), without his getting involved or even knowing about it , and wanting to micro manage it. But, in good faith, am I obligated to tell him about the issues ?"
But you started with:
"...just now realizing that he is incompetent for decision making."
People with dementia can no longer process logic and reason, do simple problem solving, manage stress, etc. Nothing productive will come of telling him. Just repair the leak because this is in his best interest to do so and that's the job of the PoA.
Plus, you said he's a narcissist. Therefore you know full well how he'd react if you told him, even if he didn't have dementia.
" 1) Freak out 2) want to go see it 3) want to be involved and micro manage the repair process, even though he cannot remember things day to day and it will just slow things down, and drive me nuts."
well, at least it was your choice.
As soon as they were settled in AL (never really settled) I stated cleaning out their falling down house and put it up for sale. It sold in a couple weeks and this money paid the huge expenses of elder care for the next four years.
I never discussed ANYTHING about the house sale with them. Left up to them, my mom at that point as dad hardly remembered his house, she would never have agreed to selling the house having the delusion that she was going home some day. She was a two person assist level at the point.
I sold the house “As Is”. It was a mess and getting worse. It was three states away from me and I was not going to spend tons of money and making that long drive trying to get it fixed up.
When we moved my mother from NC to FL into AL, we handled everything she was not able to or interested for that matter. We cleaned out her house and sold it.
There were many repairs that we had to do before putting up for sale.
If he asks I would tell him, if not, I wouldn't. Why start trouble?