Stuck with mother in law... the saga continues. Could the doctor be wrong?

Jomichelle: You married into a trainwreck family. Not a criticism. Just a fact.

Read what DrB, Takincare and Isthisreallyreal have advised. Over and over.

You need to kickstart the correction. Carefully. Methodically. Respectfully. But - you. Your husband doesn’t have the b*lls.

Do your homework. Make a plan. And don’t back down.

Some good takeaways: Your daughter needs feel safe in her home. Your daughter deserves - and needs - to be nobody’s pawn and nobody’s sounding board. It’s MIL against the world, not just you three. Keep it neutral; no complaining or venting. Document, document, document.

If you are concerned that this will affect your marriage, too late. It already has affected your marriage.

You are already locked into the role of “always being the bigger person.” Take that mindset to the next level — and continue to “be the bigger person” as you engineer MIL out the door.

You only get get one shot at giving your child a non-deranged, non-pathological home life. Your MIL blew it during your husband’s upbringing. Your husband is making the same mistake with your daughter’s home life.

Your husband’s footprint is more passive, but that does not excuse it — and it does not mitigate the damage.

If your husband is incapable of recognizing this, it does not give him a free pass.

Big hugs. Stay focused. No negative talk. Do your homework and git-R-done.

Another thing.... It would be cheaper in the long run to pay the fees to move her than you and your daughter paying for another place.

That doesn't sound like dementia. She sounds like a sociopath. Her mental faculties are quite adept. She's manipulative, self-centered, seems to have no sense of honor or shame; she'd be an excellent criminal. Has she always been like this, or has this come about as a result of her economic circumstances changing? If her personality was completely different a year ago, I'd suggest getting a CAT-scan and checking for traumatic brain injury. I'm pretty sure there's no cure for mean, cheap, and manipulative, however. Antidepressants and anti-anxiety meds?

The woman is 78 years old and obviously needs some help, after all it is your husbands mother. She seems quite unbalanced. She needs to be reevaluated by another doctor. Try to get her to a doctor and go from there. I would try to help her rather than continue with such a hostile attitude. Here is a story that might enlighten you in some way.
Example: My 79 yr old cousin came to visit for a weekend and she stayed for an entire year. She fell running with her walker to get the phone.. She had a mild concussion and had some memory loss. We took her to the ER. and then she was discharged . I brought her back to our house until she got better. The next week while we were at an appointment she fell again. She was trying to close the blinds mid way up the stairs and fell down the stairs with a chair on top of her head. I told her before we went out not to worry about the blinds. I told my cousin she can't live alone at least until she is able to do all ADL's. We talked about her moving in permanently but we all decided as a family it might be too much. I take care of my 96 year old mother 24/7 and my time is devoted to her but I made sure she was taken care and I did it out of love for my cousin. I made her meals, took her to appointments, did her laundry, picked up her meds and so on. I have a family too and people that depend on me. There are lots of wonderful people with very busy lives that open their heart to our elderly population, why not open yours? She went to rehab for a month and did quite well. We went to see her everyday. The doctor discharged her home and is doing well. She is in a elderly housing apartment and loves it. She has lots of friends, good neighbors and a nursing clinic in the basement of the apartment complex. She has a housekeeper once week and someone is always checking in on her. I feel relieved she is in a good place with lots of support. I am glad I was able to help my cousin even though it was difficult at times.

You might start documenting everything... times, dates, places, incidents. She sounds dangerous, quite frankly, and if anything were to happen to any of you, you would have at least some proof of her past actions.

Also, I'd install cameras for further proof. Might not necessarily tell the husband right away, since he is in obvious avoidance of the situation, but I'd want video proof her her actions... maybe once he actually sees her doing these things he'll wake up.

And... $500/month car payment, and $200/month insurance? That's insanity. If she can't afford it, she shouldn't be driving.

You might want to look into having her tested using the Bredesen prodical.
https://www.ahnphealth.com/science.html

This woman is 78. Who is working at 78? I think this woman is broke, alone and afraid. I think you are incredibly hard and harsh. You have no compassion. Everything is $$$ to you. You and your husband should be putting your efforts into finding alternate living arrangements for this woman. Are you in the USA. if so how horrible to be old and she is old
I have read all your posts and think you are one of the coldest people I have come across. If you don’t want her there then just say so. Don’t back it up with you skewed statistical black column red column bookkeeping.

Get rid of her. She sounds like trouble.

I can't imagine a doctor's office billing you HSA without your authorization. And all HSAs I've encountered, the owner themselves had to bill the account. This is a federally approved program and it seems fraudulent for the doctor to bill it without owner's consent.

Regarding your MIL, while she may or may not have dementia, she is definitely mentally unstable. If this was a suddenly new behavior I'd suggest she get tested for a UTI. But it sounds as if this is a continuing behavior, so I think it is manipulation and fear of losing her son, who, by the way, needs to become more involved in this situation. You need to have a heart to heart with him and tell him that you will not tolerate her behavior. You and your daughter should come first for him and if that is not the case, then you need to decide how far you are going to take this. Are you willing to leave?

I do have to say, however, that it sounds a little cold to expect a 78 year old woman to go out and get a job. Why did you bring her with you when you moved?

My suggestion....find a good elder lawyer....get her on Medicaid...assisted living sounds good for her

And while I’m on a roll I read you profile. I quote
“. I admit feeling resentful about my new role... especially because we aren’t yet sure if MIL has cognitive decline or is just sick of working and wants to be taken care of and financially supported”

78 and sick of working. Really? You bet you arse she would like some TLC, love and care and support

we we have a saying in Oz. “ I would hate to be stuck in the trenches with you “

Oy vey! I can't wait to read the other responses...but I would say this does not at all sound like dementia but a serious mental illness, guessing a borderline personality disorder. And what is most disturbing to me is that the well-being and sanity of your family is at risk, and you most likely cannot afford to live independently away from hubby (but with your daughter who is how old?) if only long enough for him to see the light. I'm guessing that legally your only option maybe officially to evict her, which hubby will not agree to...but damaging your clothing? Stealing phone? And manipulating your HSA account? I hope you put an end to that...because that would be illegal for starters and you could press charges. Having an agreement in writing would probably mean nothing to her or she would refuse to sign...but it would give you something to fall back on...as in ultimatum as in you either cut this crap out or YOU'RE out. Probably your best hope would be, if you can afford it, to engage a 3rd party like an elder law attorney, or at the very least find out who helps elders in your area...call your local city hall and they should know or call 211 if you have that service, or look up the Area Agency on Aging. You're not really in control of her so I doubt she'd cooperate with a psychiatric evaluation. The only thing is, how long have you known her? Has she always had these tendencies? Depending on your daughter's age I really feel for the emotional abuse she is having to tolerate. That's not good, that's unstable. This whole mess sounds like a plot for a Lifetime movie! If nothing else...maybe a consult with a mental health professional for just you and hubby and maybe daughter? Holding good thoughts and hope you let us know how it's going...

She has turned down perfectly good living options? Just exactly how is her moving in with a stranger kicking her to the street?

Doesn't your husband understand that she has no intention of leaving. Next time it will be a different excuse.

She will have to be dealt with or you will have to decide if you are willing to let your child be psychologically abused by this evil, selfish thing and then have her own problems because no one protected her, or will you be the change for the next generation and go give her a safe, loving, sane home. There is only one good decision and since your husband isn't going to make it, you unfortunately get to choose from the lesser of two evils.

Shame on your husband for letting his mom do these awful things to the woman he promised to forsake all others for and to love, honor and cherish. He is failing miserably. Please tell him I said so. He is also willingly letting her subject his child to abuse, it may be different but the scars will still be there. He really needs a good therapist to get his head pulled out so he can man up and deal with this creature that he calls mom.

From what I've read today and in your previous posts, it sounds as if you are enabling your husband as much as he is enabling his mother. This cannot have a happy outcome. First of all get out of there, for your own mental health and well-being and that of your daugher. Then get yourself into a support group of some kind. Another poster has mentioned NAMI (National Alliance of Mental Illness), and they are amazing. Google them to find your local group and see if they have a support group that syncs with your needs. Even Al Anon can help you because it basically helps you see that you cannot help the person who has the problem, only yourself. MIL needs professional help that is beyond your capacity to provide. Good luck, but remember that this will not change until YOU make some change.

Jo, what kind of doctor told you that MIL didn't have dementia and how much of an evaluation was done?

My mother, with significant vascular dementia, routinely scored as unimpaired on the standard "mini-mental" exam right up until her death. She could no longer manage her affairs or reason, but those skills are not assessed by that instrument.

Has MIL been seen by a geriatric psychiatrist? Has she had a full (generally 3-6 hour) cognitive and neurological evaluation?

Please pursue getting your HSA account straightened out; talk to the office manager in that doc's office and find out what MIL told them; THAT doctor ought to be your advocate in getting MIL's needs assessed.

I’d check in with Medicare and or Medicaid and find out what senior facilities she can be moved to. The bottom line is you need to take care of yourself and your daughter first. With autoimmune issues this kind of stress is too much. I know, I’m struggling with my own. There’s no way I can take care of my own mom who has dementia without the stress taking me out first. Your life and your daughters matter. Take care and move out and move on if you have to. No one will blame you. You didn’t sign up for this. It might of been a different story if your MIL was nice, helpful and good company.

Forgive me for suggesting something intentionally deceitful. Could you find a cheap apartment, based on her income alone? While she is still on the waiting lists for affordable housing, of course. Even if it's less than ideal, or even a dump, and maybe even far away from you. Sign her up for meals on wheels. You cannot have her living with your family any longer: she does not have dementia, she is a working adult, she has a car. 78 is not 'that' old!

What may happen is: she will stop paying rent, since she is so good at playing the 'helpless and without resources' card. She will be evicted. Then she will be homeless, which may "earn" her a higher spot on the waiting list. Just a thought.

Rregardless of her diagnosis, she is showing troubling signs of escalation. This is a potentially dangerous situation, and honestly I would be most worried about your daughter. I still have issues stemming from scary/crazy home situations when I was that age. Please don't keep her in that one any longer.

At this point, it's become intractable. MIL isn't going to change, DH isn't going to change. Only you can do anything. I agree with other posters here who suggest moving out to protect your daughter, Moving her out will also feel destabilizing, but if you build in lots of stability, and really explain why you're making this choice, it will help her feel protected.

The worst thing about being a child in a crazy home is you're left with a persistent sense of insecurity, because the people you naturally depend on for safety are not actually keeping you safe. The fact that nothing is done to correct the situation, and the culture of denial that anything is wrong, undermines the child's developing sense of what's ok and what's not.

If you move out and provide her with a stable, sane home life, you can continue to work on the problem of removing MIL from your home, and ultimately repairing your marriage.

Unfortunately, it's falling on you to do tbis, because your DH and his mother have a lonnng, entrenched history that realistically is not fixable unless DH himself decides to work on it. As someone else here said, do your homework, keep focused on the outcome you want, disengage from the drama, and take the steps.

Most of all, protect your daughter. She didn't choose this, but the experience will stick with her as she grows to adulthood.

Good luck.

Your husband might be inspired to find a solution more quickly if he is solely responsible for his mother's care, while you and your daughter take an extended summer vacation. Truth is they are both dependent on you, and so long as you are there to carry the burden, they will continue to take advantage. He will complain that he doesn't have time, he has to work, etc. Parents and children everywhere have to juggle multiple responsibilities, it's time for him to figure out how. Ulterior motive: something tells me she's not going to be "good as gold" for him, she's going to be just as demanding and he will tire of that quickly. The downside is the possibility he just waits out your return, when your daughter needs to go back to school. (But that tells you something, too.)

So from my perspective 78 means she has more options (she may not like them but she has them) because she is past "retirement" age and can collect SS as well as any pension or other benefits she has coming. Some people at 78 are still very much able to work if they choose, some prefer it, live alone and care for themselves, behave like a 60 year old. Others are aging less gracefully and either have physical or cognitive decline that require more actual care-giving. Either way while each individual is responsible for themselves, yes it's not your fault or responsibility that she didn't manage her finances well, we also feel some responsibility and want to help care for them spend time with them as their children. So while your DH may have somewhat of a blind spot here it's perfectly natural and I would guess expected if you are married to him, that he want's to help her and not toss her out. That doesn't mean making your household intolerable or "choosing her over his wife and child", in fact drawing a clearer line for her may indeed be taking better care of her than letting her run rough shot. But it sounds like perhaps things have gotten to a stage where you are no longer working as a team on this and instead letting it divide you. When it comes to caring for our aging parents the love and support of our spouses and significant others is so important, they are often the ones who can help us see the forest beyond the trees and just let us vent when we need that. I didn't find this info but is he an only child or are their siblings? You obviously have been this support for him given that you planned for her moving with and in with you in the first place so fairly or not, consciously or not, he may be confused by what feels like a sudden turn around from you and is turtling because he doesn't know what else to do. He feels stuck between a partner who cared about his mother too at one point and a mother who he is drawn to help and likely still sees through rose colored glasses even though he believes and knows she is behaving badly it is easier to believe it's medically driven somehow and it may be. I would urge you to try and find that supportive spot again with DH where you help him see the facts and decide how to proceed without attacking his mom or his devotion to her.
Now MIL has options you just need to help her son stick to them as he helps her choose and accomplish, you can be the back up more behind the scenes but the exchanges with her about what needs to happen really have to be between them, take yourself out of the middle. If she chooses not to work and live off of her SS she needs to do that, paying for herself. If that means Medicaid, so be it and if that means giving up her expensive car and replacing it with something more in her price range... At this point she seems to have written her walking papers from your home so unless she chooses to make a great turn around this responsibility for herself financially means finding her own place too. Doesn't have to be far away, it might be a room in someones house or a small retirement community apartment and if she can't do that for herself DH needs to help (with you behind the scenes) locate 2 or 3 options and walk her through choosing one. Gather the info about assistance available and help her apply, start going to doctors appointments and make sure legal paperwork is in order (POA etc) and get her a neuro psyc eval (a baseline in case it's helpful later) to see if medication or something might help. Sounds like she was very independent prior and still appears very capable of being so but maybe there is something going on she isn't sharing that has her fearful. She is now dealing with new providers she may not trust yet that don't know her or you & DH so you guys might persist more, help her settle. She and DH may each be more frighted than either admit. Don't make your home as "comfortable", expectations and living up to rent promise she has to figure out. Take bk p

Wow - if we look up nasty MIL, would her picture be there? My former MIL was not nearly that nasty, but definitely tended to be manipulative and authoritative. Fortunately we never had to live with her!

In your case, the situation needs resolution. Having read the responses, I would agree that counseling for you, your daughter AND your husband might be in order at some point. He might need it sooner, to get him into "Action mode." You can at least start by reassuring your daughter that what grandma says/does is not normal and for her to try to ignore it. My ex and his second wife used to say horrible things to my children about me - I don't feed them enough, I don't take good care of them, I don't even like them! I just calmIy asked them if they were hungry and said if so there's food here and here or they can ask me (their response was no.) I asked them if they felt they needed something or that I wasn't caring for them, they said no. I laughed at the last one, and said if I didn't like you, you would be living with him! I was also "blamed" for a lot of his issues, so I just laughed and took on blame for ANY shortcomings in the world! They learned to ignore it.

I also concur that this isn't likely dementia. She was unstable before and that hasn't changed (or has upped her game.) She knows/has learned how to play the manipulation game. While dementia patients could possibly do stuff like this, they wouldn't be able to maintain it.

Beware of finding a place and paying first/last/security - IF you sign your name, you will be paying for this forever and a day! It might be less expensive for you to find a safe place for yourself and your daughter to move to. If hubby truly wants resolution, he would have to work on that while you two are away. You say he is willing to do what must be done to prevent you moving away - hold him to that.

Because she has limited income/assets, perhaps she can qualify for Medicaid and find a Medicaid AL facility? It might be a good time to make inquiries with a good attorney - most will give you a limited initial consult for free - they might have ideas on how best to handle this situation. If not, they could help you file for separation (just another prod to get hubby "motivated") which could get you child support to assist in paying for another residence. That might also get the wheels in his head moving.

I also think installing some nanny-cams would be a good idea, especially if you stay in the same home or until you move out. Put them in locations where you might "catch" her behavior (laundry, daughter's room, any place she might try something underhanded.) This would provide video proof of her behavior - documenting it only won't be enough (your word vs hers.) Hubby might need to see this for himself to prod him into action, especially in regards to your vulnerable daughter. Be sure to hide them well and don't put them up when she is around!

Quick lookup on the HSA (never used it myself) says it CAN be used for immediate family and dependents. Is she claimed as a dependent? Even if she is, it should have been processed through YOU, not her. If she is NOT a dependent, I would ask the doctor office to reimburse your account and for them to bill her.

Although your lease is probably for a year, consider moving out when the lease is done, if not before (you and daughter.) Did MIL sign lease? If not, if you move elsewhere without her when the lease is up, she becomes a squatter and would be evicted (problem with this is those damn filial laws!) You could just tell her that lease is up, owner is not renting anymore and she'll have to find a place because the new place you are moving to isn't big enough.

The last thing I suggest is reporting it to your doctors. Generally at a visit they might ask if you feel "safe" in your own home. When you see your/daughter's doc, even if they don't ask, I would bring this up with them. They might be able to initiate something.

Your MIL was always an evil woman. Look what she did lying to her son when he was young. What's dementia got to do with it? She knows what she is doing. She needs to get out of your lives. What is "normal aging" anyhow? I am the same age as MIL and I have a few health issues but I take care of myself, manage my own life, live in a very nice independent living place and would never impose on anyone else. Where I live, many people older than myself do well on their own.
I suspect she has always been a controlling hateful person. That does not have to mean mental illness! She may want to ruin her son's marriage. Unfortunately, he has not been able to deal with the harm she has done to him in the past. I would hope he might get help instead of trying to take care of her. She does not love or care about him. She is a user. We all have to take care of ourselves. The hateful little things she is doing out of spite are very bad and could get worse if she is allowed to stay in YOUR home. Get her out now! It is your choice and you don't need experts help. But put your foot down, tell husband she must go. Don't forget to change the locks after you get her out. You are living with an enemy.

Just coming in on this discussion and you have had some wonderful responses and suggestions. I'm a social worker and was the director of admissions at a local long term care facility so I'm not entirely without experience. She may or may not have dementia and you can certainly get a second opinion - although unless she is declared incompetent by a doctor, you can't force her to see a physician. My question -- has she always been this way? Is she mean spirited towards other people (those nice neighbors, the folks she works with, etc)? Was she this manipulative of your husband when you married him? Did she manage to hide it from you and/or your husband? Does your husband notice that she is doing this to his family or does he only notice when things come to a head and you (or your child) say something or is upset. It sounds to me like your husband, hardworking, caring, loving as he is, needs to step up. It's his mother, not yours. Of course, remember that when he steps up, it's still going to be your fault ("she's turned him against me"). He should find her behavior as unacceptable as you and he needs to be at the forefront of finding a solution. I can see her stalling if and when she gets a letter from HUD housing. She'll need to bring in documentation of income etc and I'm willing to be she "won't be able to locate" anything they request. If she stalls long enough, they will bypass her and she be still in your home. In any event you and your husband are between a rock and a lava flow - not an easy or enviable position.
Remember unless she is declared incompetent she can't be forced to be evaluated by a new doctor. If she's alert, oriented, smart and evil (sounds like she has the last one down pat) she knows that the threat to place her in a nursing home is an empty one. What would the reason for admission and who would pay for her? Her $1000/mo is not going to cover a month and she, in other words you.... will need to apply for Medicaid. BTW medicaid will need even more documents than HUD. It's time to get things in order before you really need them.

It wish you good luck and blessings in this difficult situation. Please keep us updated.

Your MIL is a manipulative, selfish human being - no doubt about it. I bet she showed signs of similar behaviors when she was younger - so it may not be a dementia thing. I would recommend that you start keeping a "log" of these behaviors with dates and times; try to back-track and include the previous ones also.  

I would recommend that you have private meetings with (1) your husband and (2) her physician - and confront both of them with the "documented evidence" of her bizarre behaviors.

Her behavior is a lot like a person with a psychiatric illness - not necessarily dementia. (I used to be a psych RN.) You are correct that YOU will need to be the ones to move her out, because she clearly won't do it herself.

Her putting her copays on YOUR card is a felony, since she is not on your health insurance and it is not her bank account! You could have her arrested, if you wanted to do that.

Please keep setting boundaries and putting your foot down!

Her moving with you was the first mistake. Then paying all her bills after she told you she would pay them herself, is really bad. Sounds like she is a manipulator, you need to get her out of your house. What does your husband have to say??

I missed earlier post.. does your MIL have any money, if not how will you get her into assisted living if you are not able to financial support her now.
I think it is sad that a 78 year old has to find a job to pay her way, dies she not have SS and is she eligible for some assistance.
She may be suffering from anxiety or another illness and overall I agree you should have her evaluated but do not give up on her..you are her only family.

Reading this, I can see a couple of things that ought to be part of the equation. First, does she have Social Security or SSI? if she is actually capable of basic daily life, a subsidized independent living facility would be a lot cheaper than AL, and there is still usually some onsite management. (78 isn't necessarily old; and I work full time. I live with a daughter and we stay out of each other's hair. My MIL lived alone with family nearby until 76, and did miracles with SSI and a garden.) Talk to the local elder care authorities for suggestions if you haven't already done so.

Your husband will not allow his family to live away from him? You are not a prisoner, he cannot stop you from leaving. You need to get your child away from her. She is your first responsibility.

I would call the doc's office and get her removed from HSA card ASAP. While your at it yell at them to put the $ back and charge her like they were supposed to to begin with. That is outright fraud! Tell them you wont be a part of that. You could get in trouble for not doing anything and knowing. How can they just add a grown family member to your HSA account??? That sounds very illegal to me. Usually its husband/wife/ kids. Since when does extended family get added in any time? I would also have them put in her chart that she is NOT to be added to any family insurance. That it is illegal and you will prosecute them if it conts to happen. I also believe they are contributing to fraud. Tell them you dont care if she manipulated them by crying and playing victim. Your not going to jail for fraud. They can make phone calls and reverse that. If they refuse, call the HSA# and get her taken off. Tell them what happened. They can bill her directly.
Next Id make sure your purse/credit card and insurance/bank statement info is securely locked up. Not just in bedroom but under lock and key hidden from now on. No mail left sitting out. If she is capable of ins fraud she could do other damage. (She took your phone/ruined clothes). Write down all bank/cc info so you have contact info at the ready. Check it weekly.

Then Id sit down with hubby calmly and tell him it isnt working. Home should be a haven and its now a hostile battle ground. Your husb is not going to be able to choose. He has to help working on a solution to get her, her own place. Say it calmly. No yelling. Daughter and you have a right to be in happy home not stressful. Say it calmly.
MIL will flip, but to bad. She can move close by, but she has lost her privilege sabotaging the family.
Do NOT sign anything for mom when getting a place. You will end up being responsible/paying.

I would contact dept of aging in your county. They may be able to help. Maybe a lawyer to draw up a proper legal eviction notice for her since she feels entitled to live there. I dont think words are enuff to get her to move. She will call your bluff and not make any effort to move. Them play helpless victim. She can be given 2 months to find a place. She needs to see legal paper.

Make sure to tell him, hes not choosing one over the other, but just making the family situation less stressful. Or else he wont be able to choose, and will end up doing nothing, as most guys will. He will happily let you be the bad guy. So he looks good in mom's eyes. You will become the bad guy to both of them. You are the only one complaining. So you must tell him he's not abandoning mom, just putting a little distance there for everyones sanity. Your house is your castle. There cant be 2 queens running it. She can be close by. You have a right to a stress fee home.
You have to make sure he knows that he is not choosing one or the other, just helping all parties with less stress. Let us know how it goes. Feel free to vent any time. Im sure your home is a pressure cooker.

As for food just let her eat. Choose your battles. Your getting her out, but meals will be less tense. Your husb can pay for the groceries lol. Also refuse to engage her when she says nasty things. She will stop if she cant get a response. If she says nasty things when husbs isnt around, Id record her and get cams. Only use it as a very very last resort. He wont believe you otherwise. Dont let anyone, even daughter know you are recording. You use that as last resort. You cant lead with Im leaving and taking daughter. Only use that as last case scenario. Get your ducks in a row b4 you do that.

Start to have a date night w daughter. Gets you out of the house, some pos bonding time, and less stress. Can be a movie, the park or just a walk. Husb can make moms dinner and see how living w her by himself is no fun.
Stop making everything about $$$, she didnt pay for meals, etc. He'll just resent you for that.

What you dealing with is not dementia, but possibly a narcissistic personality. She should be evaluated by a psychiatrist to see what the actual diagnosis is, but she is clearly displaying behavioral disorders. Also ask the psychiatrist about sociopathic behaviors. Destroying your clothes and property demonstrates very disturbing behaviors that are not appropriate, but very self centered.