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So I made the mistake of taking Dad to his VA doctor because the Adult Day Center requires a yearly physical. I'm sure the doctor was just relaying CLINICAL facts (some of which I kinda knew minus the whole institutional explanation), but I'm really thrown.
According to Dad's blood work, his kidneys are malfunctioning and the VA doctor recommended him to a Nephrologist who recommends DIALYSIS!!!!!. The doc also wants him to visit a Thoracic Surgeon because of the damaged lung tissue.
Of course, this clinical approach is in direct conflict with the aim of Hospice. We know Dad is sick with end stage COPD but hearing that his damaged lung tissue could rupture at any time which would kill him instantly was -- harsh, and do I want a surgeon poking and prodding on an 87 year old man with severe anxiety issues? No thank you!!!
As for the dialysis, Seriously? Do they really think an 87 year old man with end stage COPD could even lie still for that invasive procedure? How would I get him back and forth to the multiple appointments?
UGH!!! I wish I would not have taken him to that doctor!!! Of course, I'm going to refuse the doctor's recommendations, but why do I feel guilty about that now? I feel like I'm "speeding up the process" by not at least taking Dad to these other treatments / doctors. I know the goal of Hospice is to make his remaining time as peaceful as possible, but I just wish I didn't know all of this. Ignorance really is bliss in some cases...
Am I doing the right thing? Am I giving up? Should we fight for it?!?! So confused...
No, you are NOT speeding up the process. You are avoiding a prolonged, painful death. You are a good daughter. A good read on the topic of how the medical community fails us on this topic is 'Being Mortal' by Atul Gawande. Blessings, Jamie
I would absolutely do what you're doing (NOT do dialysis or prolong his treatments). When my 91-year old father was diagnosed with lung cancer, his oncologist wanted him to do six weeks of daily radiation treatments (Mon - Fri). I said absolutely not at his age, what was the oncologist thinking? It makes my blood boil just thinking about it now, 9 years later. I asked what we could do to keep him comfortable. So we did two weeks for palliative care (so 10 treatments). Even those left him with a gigantic burn on his chest. I can't imagine what 30 treatments would have done to him. He died a year after his diagnosis and went quickly and without pain. I hope your dad can have a similarly quick and painless end when his time comes. You are doing the right thing. {{{Hugs}}}
Tinyblu, No Way, You are not giving up if you choose No Dialysis, instead you are opting to instead choose Care, Quality of Life, and Symptom Control. IMO, Now is a good time to bring in Hospice, to aid you in supporting your Dad through the end of his life in the best and most compassionate way possible, unless of course your Father Adamantly chooses to go through the treatment, but it doesn't sound like he would.
Remember, we all die of something, and it sounds as if your Dad has other medical issues, that would make hemodialysis difficult for him and his family, and dialysis does not mean that his life expectancy would be improved, and might even make his life much more difficult than if he did choose dialysis.
Renal failure, to my understanding isn't the worst "way to go", yes, the patient becomes tired, may have increased itching, fluid retention, increased confusion and even some pain, but most of these symptoms can be treated and managed , along with some dietary changes and restrictions.
At 87, is it really fair to put him through 3 arduous treatments per week, only for him to come home feeling poorly, tired, and still needing to manage his diet and the side effects of the treatment?
I think its wise to read up on your options, have an in depth consultation with his Nephrologist, and other Specialists, and see whether or not opting out of Dialysis is the wiser choice, given his age, his co-morbitities, his living situation and how it would affect his day to day, and how it would affect those who care give for him, as treatment sadly, may be futile and even detrimental at this point.
I wish you good luck with your decisions, and Remember, you are a Great and loving daughter who only wants the best for their Father, or else you wouldn't be struggling with the decision on what is best!!!!!
99.9% of all doctors are not formally trained to discuss quality of life because of liability.
Your father's doctor is doing what's he's been trained to do: See a medical issue, refer the patient to a specialist. It's up to you/us as caregivers to decide what is best for your/our loved one's quality of life. Many times the treatment is worse than the disease itself for elders who are already suffering from a slew of other serious health issues. Just because you can treat a medical condition doesn't necessarily mean that you should.
Tiny, my grandma had COPD and when her kidneys started to fail, her nephrologist (actually the nephrology resident) recommended dialysis. It was put to us as "Well, it's that or she'll be gone by the end of the week." We agreed in a panic and it was the worst decision. She had a few weeks of being in a lot of pain, the visits to dialysis were awful for both her and my mom, and in the end the blood thinners caused her issues and we spent her last hours with her in the ER and then ICU. If I could go back and help her choose hospice instead (if that had even been suggested to our family as an option) I would do it in a second. After the fact, I told my friend who's a primary care dr about it, and she was appalled that the doctor recommended dialysis for a person in their late 80s, particularly with her health issues.
My husband 's take on it -- this is my layman's retelling -- was that when my grandma's heart and lungs were not functioning properly, it put a much greater demand on her other organs to compensate. If the demand becomes too much, at some point the other organs start to shut down, and there may be nothing medicine can do to make the person better. They can prolong things, or postpone them, but not improve them. The above advice from other readers is really good. I wish we had had that input when my grandma was sick.
I know you will make the right decision for you and your dad, but I hope the medical staff is spending time answering your questions, and giving you honest, thoughtful and straightforward explanations about what is happening with your dad so that you are not bearing the weight of this decision all on your own.
Your posts always touch my heart -- your relationship with your dad, his feistiness, your own struggles balancing being a good daughter with maintaining your own well-being, and your sense of humor -- so many of us are rooting for you, and I hope that you find strength and calm during this time.
I also suggest reading 'Being Mortal' by Atul Gawande. For end-of-life treatments very often the medical profession is not acting in the best interest of the patient.
I always remember when my FIL with dementia was in end stage renal disease and had been taken off of dialysis, a cardiologist entered his room and said brightly " we'll be doing a pacemaker tomorrow".
He was chased from the room by me ex and his three brothers.
Tiny, this must be agonizing for you. Dad's brain is dying, and so are some pretty significant parts of his body. Hospice is there for a reason. To let him down easy and help you through this.
Please don't take this as criticism, but did you ask Hospice if they could get dad whatever medical forms needed certifying for daycare? Does dad still need the added stress of daycare? Something to think about.
I've never known a more devoted daughter, dear. I'm honored to know you.
I am forever grateful to my FIL's oncologist who saw that dad was at the end. He didn't offer one more round of chemo, one more drug, one more transfusion. He just said "This is the end. We knew it would happen, "L" fought the good fight." Because I had been dad's primary caregiver for the 6 months prior to his death, I could see how bad he was. Dh and SIL were kind of frantic, having seen him on his "deathbed" a few times before. He'd always rebounded. They both thanked the Doc and said "We think he will rally, he always does." Doc asked if he could give something to FIL to ease his painful breathing--and DH and SIL said Yes. The doctor administered the biggest syringe of morphine I've ever seen. Said he'd hang around for a while--and dad passed within a few minutes.
Now, some people would take umbrage at that doctor. I thanked him profusely. Maybe he hastened dad's death, but if so, it was only by hours, not days or weeks of suffering.
Many drs cannot see past the "do no harm" part of the Hippocratic oath, or they are scared of not doing everything possible to keep someone alive. Sometimes family members are crawling down their necks for a magical cure. It's a tough road.
Thank you SO much everyone. Oddly, as soon as I got home from work, I stood in the shower and cried and cried and cried. I just think I needed to let it all out. I decided to stick with the hospice route and just continue to make Dad comfortable.
Every day I see him get weaker and it breaks my heart. My Dad was always a proud guy and though always thin (his nickname is "Skinny Willie"), he was strong and strong willed. He was quite dangerous on a basketball court and smiles when he sees African American professional basketball players -- something that wasn't thought of as a black man in the south in the 40's when he played.
I am going to pick up that book today. I also spoke with Hospice and they are going to see if they can manage all of Dad's medications (that's the only reason I stuck with the VA - for the free meds). They are also getting the social worker more involved to see if we can have Dad's transportation person transport Dad to and from the van to the Adult Day Center in a wheelchair to ease the burden of him trying to walk that short distance and the anxiety of him trying to remember the time schedule. I don't think he should keep going, but it makes him happy.
It looks like this is "the beginning of the end". I didn't think it would be this tough. I pray (hope this doesn't sound mean) that his transition is painless, peaceful and quick. In the meantime, I'm already making preparations because when IT finally does happen, I won't be in the mental state to handle it.
Tinyblu, I know you are making the right decision to hang on with hospice. Remember the majority of medicine today is defensive!
I have the crud, and yesterday went into my doc. The nurse took vitals, history, etc, and determined I did not have flu by my symptoms (I came in for bronchitis meds). We wait, and eventually a nurse comes along and tells me to put on this gown, that we are going to have a chest x-ray. "No thank you, I'm not comfortable with that." She looked at me bug eyed, "What??" I repeated. She hollered down the hall "she said no!"
While I continue to wait, I look up on my phone when it is appropriate to have a chest xray to check for pneumonia (no one has even listened to my chest yet). Not in the early stages of disease. I'm right. Doc comes in, never even mentioned my refusal, and casually asks when my symptoms started. 36 hours ago. Nothing else was said about that xray, but he can check it off on the electronic record as "refused" so his insurance does not go up!
It's the same with your dad- you should refuse to keep hospice. The hospice we used did all medical work right there in the MC - she broke her arm, they brought in a mobile x-ray unit. She needed bloodwork, they pulled it in the dining room while she was eating and distracted. They took care of all her meds - no charge to us. They handled the paperwork too. They did such a good job that she stopped declining and graduated from their care!
Hi Tiny, I've worked with doctors that did the same thing. They give a diagnosis then treatment options. That's what they're expected to do. However, if you ask them what THEY would do if it were with their family member, it's a whole different story! My mom (then 90) was found to have a tiny lump in her breast. She was referred to a surgeon who removed it. In discussing her follow up appointments, the (female) surgeon said, "There is no follow up." What? She said that my mom should have never been referred for surgery. She would die of old age before the cancer would get her. Mom's never been back for a checkup.
Your dad has end stage COPD. He, unfortunately, will not recover. He should not have to face the grewling task of dialysis or any other difficult treatment. You are doing the right thing with hospice. And, I'll bet, if you asked the nephrologist what HE would do for his family member, he'd do the same. God bless you all on the journey.
Tiny - ((((((((hugs)))))) just (((((((hugs)))). You are doing a wonderful job. I have been wondering, from your recent posts, if you are in anticipatory grieving for your dad. The loneliness may come from what you fear feeling once he is gone. This all is normal. No one is ever prepared for the loss of a parent.
You are doing the very best you, or anyone, can do to meet his needs and give him what enjoyment he is able to have at this period of his life. Please gain some peace from that. Thank you for sharing "Skinny Willie" with us, and his pride in the African American basketball players. Made me smile. I bet he was amazing to watch on the court.
I am glad you are making preparations. I need to do this for mother, who is hanging in there, but at her age anything can happen. Thanks for being a good example.
This is tough, but so are you. You will find the strength you need when you need it Hoping "that his transition is painless, peaceful and quick" is not mean, it is compassionate. You are a wonderful daughter to your proud, strong dad.
In the midst of this, remember to take care of you, even in very small ways.
By proceeding, I agree that I understand the following disclosures:
I. How We Work in Washington.
Based on your preferences, we provide you with information about one or more of our contracted senior living providers ("Participating Communities") and provide your Senior Living Care Information to Participating Communities. The Participating Communities may contact you directly regarding their services.
APFM does not endorse or recommend any provider. It is your sole responsibility to select the appropriate care for yourself or your loved one. We work with both you and the Participating Communities in your search. We do not permit our Advisors to have an ownership interest in Participating Communities.
II. How We Are Paid.
We do not charge you any fee – we are paid by the Participating Communities. Some Participating Communities pay us a percentage of the first month's standard rate for the rent and care services you select. We invoice these fees after the senior moves in.
III. When We Tour.
APFM tours certain Participating Communities in Washington (typically more in metropolitan areas than in rural areas.) During the 12 month period prior to December 31, 2017, we toured 86.2% of Participating Communities with capacity for 20 or more residents.
IV. No Obligation or Commitment.
You have no obligation to use or to continue to use our services. Because you pay no fee to us, you will never need to ask for a refund.
V. Complaints.
Please contact our Family Feedback Line at (866) 584-7340 or ConsumerFeedback@aplaceformom.com to report any complaint. Consumers have many avenues to address a dispute with any referral service company, including the right to file a complaint with the Attorney General's office at: Consumer Protection Division, 800 5th Avenue, Ste. 2000, Seattle, 98104 or 800-551-4636.
VI. No Waiver of Your Rights.
APFM does not (and may not) require or even ask consumers seeking senior housing or care services in Washington State to sign waivers of liability for losses of personal property or injury or to sign waivers of any rights established under law.
I agree that:
A.
I authorize A Place For Mom ("APFM") to collect certain personal and contact detail information, as well as relevant health care information about me or from me about the senior family member or relative I am assisting ("Senior Living Care Information").
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APFM may provide information to me electronically. My electronic signature on agreements and documents has the same effect as if I signed them in ink.
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APFM may send all communications to me electronically via e-mail or by access to an APFM web site.
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If I want a paper copy, I can print a copy of the Disclosures or download the Disclosures for my records.
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This E-Sign Acknowledgement and Authorization applies to these Disclosures and all future Disclosures related to APFM's services, unless I revoke my authorization. You may revoke this authorization in writing at any time (except where we have already disclosed information before receiving your revocation.) This authorization will expire after one year.
F.
You consent to APFM's reaching out to you using a phone system than can auto-dial numbers (we miss rotary phones, too!), but this consent is not required to use our service.
According to Dad's blood work, his kidneys are malfunctioning and the VA doctor recommended him to a Nephrologist who recommends DIALYSIS!!!!!. The doc also wants him to visit a Thoracic Surgeon because of the damaged lung tissue.
Of course, this clinical approach is in direct conflict with the aim of Hospice. We know Dad is sick with end stage COPD but hearing that his damaged lung tissue could rupture at any time which would kill him instantly was -- harsh, and do I want a surgeon poking and prodding on an 87 year old man with severe anxiety issues? No thank you!!!
As for the dialysis, Seriously? Do they really think an 87 year old man with end stage COPD could even lie still for that invasive procedure? How would I get him back and forth to the multiple appointments?
UGH!!! I wish I would not have taken him to that doctor!!! Of course, I'm going to refuse the doctor's recommendations, but why do I feel guilty about that now? I feel like I'm "speeding up the process" by not at least taking Dad to these other treatments / doctors. I know the goal of Hospice is to make his remaining time as peaceful as possible, but I just wish I didn't know all of this. Ignorance really is bliss in some cases...
Am I doing the right thing? Am I giving up? Should we fight for it?!?! So confused...
Blessings,
Jamie
Remember, we all die of something, and it sounds as if your Dad has other medical issues, that would make hemodialysis difficult for him and his family, and dialysis does not mean that his life expectancy would be improved, and might even make his life much more difficult than if he did choose dialysis.
Renal failure, to my understanding isn't the worst "way to go", yes, the patient becomes tired, may have increased itching, fluid retention, increased confusion and even some pain, but most of these symptoms can be treated and managed , along with some dietary changes and restrictions.
At 87, is it really fair to put him through 3 arduous treatments per week, only for him to come home feeling poorly, tired, and still needing to manage his diet and the side effects of the treatment?
I think its wise to read up on your options, have an in depth consultation with his Nephrologist, and other Specialists, and see whether or not opting out of Dialysis is the wiser choice, given his age, his co-morbitities, his living situation and how it would affect his day to day, and how it would affect those who care give for him, as treatment sadly, may be futile and even detrimental at this point.
I wish you good luck with your decisions, and Remember, you are a Great and loving daughter who only wants the best for their Father, or else you wouldn't be struggling with the decision on what is best!!!!!
Your father's doctor is doing what's he's been trained to do: See a medical issue, refer the patient to a specialist. It's up to you/us as caregivers to decide what is best for your/our loved one's quality of life. Many times the treatment is worse than the disease itself for elders who are already suffering from a slew of other serious health issues. Just because you can treat a medical condition doesn't necessarily mean that you should.
My husband 's take on it -- this is my layman's retelling -- was that when my grandma's heart and lungs were not functioning properly, it put a much greater demand on her other organs to compensate. If the demand becomes too much, at some point the other organs start to shut down, and there may be nothing medicine can do to make the person better. They can prolong things, or postpone them, but not improve them. The above advice from other readers is really good. I wish we had had that input when my grandma was sick.
I know you will make the right decision for you and your dad, but I hope the medical staff is spending time answering your questions, and giving you honest, thoughtful and straightforward explanations about what is happening with your dad so that you are not bearing the weight of this decision all on your own.
Your posts always touch my heart -- your relationship with your dad, his feistiness, your own struggles balancing being a good daughter with maintaining your own well-being, and your sense of humor -- so many of us are rooting for you, and I hope that you find strength and calm during this time.
He was chased from the room by me ex and his three brothers.
Tiny, this must be agonizing for you. Dad's brain is dying, and so are some pretty significant parts of his body. Hospice is there for a reason. To let him down easy and help you through this.
Please don't take this as criticism, but did you ask Hospice if they could get dad whatever medical forms needed certifying for daycare? Does dad still need the added stress of daycare? Something to think about.
I've never known a more devoted daughter, dear. I'm honored to know you.
Now, some people would take umbrage at that doctor. I thanked him profusely. Maybe he hastened dad's death, but if so, it was only by hours, not days or weeks of suffering.
Many drs cannot see past the "do no harm" part of the Hippocratic oath, or they are scared of not doing everything possible to keep someone alive. Sometimes family members are crawling down their necks for a magical cure. It's a tough road.
Every day I see him get weaker and it breaks my heart. My Dad was always a proud guy and though always thin (his nickname is "Skinny Willie"), he was strong and strong willed. He was quite dangerous on a basketball court and smiles when he sees African American professional basketball players -- something that wasn't thought of as a black man in the south in the 40's when he played.
I am going to pick up that book today. I also spoke with Hospice and they are going to see if they can manage all of Dad's medications (that's the only reason I stuck with the VA - for the free meds). They are also getting the social worker more involved to see if we can have Dad's transportation person transport Dad to and from the van to the Adult Day Center in a wheelchair to ease the burden of him trying to walk that short distance and the anxiety of him trying to remember the time schedule. I don't think he should keep going, but it makes him happy.
It looks like this is "the beginning of the end". I didn't think it would be this tough. I pray (hope this doesn't sound mean) that his transition is painless, peaceful and quick. In the meantime, I'm already making preparations because when IT finally does happen, I won't be in the mental state to handle it.
The support here is invaluable.
I have the crud, and yesterday went into my doc. The nurse took vitals, history, etc, and determined I did not have flu by my symptoms (I came in for bronchitis meds). We wait, and eventually a nurse comes along and tells me to put on this gown, that we are going to have a chest x-ray. "No thank you, I'm not comfortable with that." She looked at me bug eyed, "What??" I repeated. She hollered down the hall "she said no!"
While I continue to wait, I look up on my phone when it is appropriate to have a chest xray to check for pneumonia (no one has even listened to my chest yet). Not in the early stages of disease. I'm right. Doc comes in, never even mentioned my refusal, and casually asks when my symptoms started. 36 hours ago. Nothing else was said about that xray, but he can check it off on the electronic record as "refused" so his insurance does not go up!
It's the same with your dad- you should refuse to keep hospice. The hospice we used did all medical work right there in the MC - she broke her arm, they brought in a mobile x-ray unit. She needed bloodwork, they pulled it in the dining room while she was eating and distracted. They took care of all her meds - no charge to us. They handled the paperwork too. They did such a good job that she stopped declining and graduated from their care!
I've worked with doctors that did the same thing. They give a diagnosis then treatment options. That's what they're expected to do. However, if you ask them what THEY would do if it were with their family member, it's a whole different story!
My mom (then 90) was found to have a tiny lump in her breast. She was referred to a surgeon who removed it. In discussing her follow up appointments, the (female) surgeon said, "There is no follow up." What? She said that my mom should have never been referred for surgery. She would die of old age before the cancer would get her. Mom's never been back for a checkup.
Your dad has end stage COPD. He, unfortunately, will not recover. He should not have to face the grewling task of dialysis or any other difficult treatment. You are doing the right thing with hospice. And, I'll bet, if you asked the nephrologist what HE would do for his family member, he'd do the same.
God bless you all on the journey.
You are doing the very best you, or anyone, can do to meet his needs and give him what enjoyment he is able to have at this period of his life. Please gain some peace from that. Thank you for sharing "Skinny Willie" with us, and his pride in the African American basketball players. Made me smile. I bet he was amazing to watch on the court.
I am glad you are making preparations. I need to do this for mother, who is hanging in there, but at her age anything can happen. Thanks for being a good example.
This is tough, but so are you. You will find the strength you need when you need it Hoping "that his transition is painless, peaceful and quick" is not mean, it is compassionate. You are a wonderful daughter to your proud, strong dad.
In the midst of this, remember to take care of you, even in very small ways.